Change suggested value for Cleansing

[Davali]

I'm wondering why all the soap calcs set suggested cleansing value at 12-22. Experienced soapers know that most body soaps are going to be gentler at 0-15-ish, with even that being the high end, IMO. But inexperienced soapers don't know this, and often mistakenly make soaps with cleansing at 17 or so - because they think that mid-range is best for every value. It just seems silly to me to keep using a range that almost none of us really agree with --do we??

I also wonder if each suggested range for each quality could have a little informational icon that could be popped open to explain what the value represents, and why one might choose to be at one end or the other (or in the middle) of the suggested range.

Thanks for considering this!

 

[Yooper]

You’re right- even a soap cleansing value of 0 will still clean.

This value though represents the ability of the soap to “grab” onto oils. It is the sum of the recipes combination of the percentage of lauric and myristic percentages.

 

[Davali]

Thank you for responding so quickly - I appreciate that.

I guess I didn’t explain myself well. I get that each factor - cleansing, bubbly, longevity, etc. - represents the sum of specific fatty acids. I’m good with that and am not suggesting we change that.

The part I don’t understand is why all the calculators must stick with certain suggested ranges for those factors. This is especially true for Cleansing, where almost no one who knows about soap formulating actually stays within that range for formulating.

Is there something else going on with the science or politics (FDA or other regulators?) that this suggested range cannot be modified to more accurately reflect real world usage?

To say it another way, if we were designing this today, with no history to influence us, and given that soap formulators tend to use a very different range in real life, would you still set the Cleansing range of values from 12 -22? If so, why?

I appreciate your wisdom in this and look forward to learning more.

 

[Yooper]

No, I think the cleansing values would stay the same. It’s because it’s a safe range, without being too drying or too oil heavy. You can always go out of the ranges, but staying within the range means that until you are more experienced you will have a good idea of the properties of the soap.

 

[Davali]

No, I think the cleansing values would stay the same. It’s because it’s a safe range, without being too drying or too oil heavy. You can always go out of the ranges, but staying within the range means that until you are more experienced you will have a good idea of the properties of the soap.

I guess the issue then is that new soapers need to do a lot more studying before they try to create recipes. It’s a daily thing to answer questions from people who sincerely believe that a good soap, or even the perfect soap, requires a recipe where each number is in the exact middle of the suggested ranges. Makes me batty. Perhaps I need to step away from the keyboard! But so many people helped me along the way that I do like to help others who are just starting.

 

[Yooper]

Yes, I see what you are saying. But changing the numbers would really be a nightmare, because that range, while not perfect, will give you a perfectly reasonable soap. To change it would mean that it would be even harder for new soapmakers to judge what is a good baseline to start with.

 

[ekkle]

I appreciate this conversation. I’m not a new soaper but I’m a middle ground cleansing number soaper. I have learned that if the cleansing number is too high just up your SF. I also learned that my SF should be 1/2 my cleansing number.Example if my cleansing number is 17 I up my SF to 8. I must have been miss informed according to this conversation.

 

[WilliamD]

I think I might add a different insight into this......Let's say a new person is using Palm Kernel Oil and they go way beyond (Let's say they use 50%) what we would know to be only to use 20-30% as a base. Sure his cleansing would be skyrocketed but also the bar would be super hard but Very Brittle; thus my understanding of the graph is to keep beginners from doing just that type of mistake. It should be stated that the graphs are guidelines only. (Make a traditional Castille Soap and your longevity will definitely be in the red...doesn't mean it's a bad bar of soap but we know why that's OK and maybe a beginner doesn't)! I understand the frustration of solely relying on the middle ground of the graph for you, ......but you, I and others are more advanced and know how to work different oils and percentages. Maybe a solution is to add a suggested maximum percentage of that particular oil to be used as a base oil in the information icon for each oil.

 

[DeryBy]

If we talk about normal values, the normal ph of the finished "zero" soap is 8-9. It can be reduced to 7.5, but no less, then the soap will cease to be soap. A "zero" soap with ph of 5.5 cannot exist by definition. I, for example, prefer to buy natural soaps at this store. But if you make your own - measure the right proportions of oils. The composition should include: oils that make the soap hard (e.g. palm, cocoa, etc.) - up to 65%; foaming and foaming-stabilizing oils (coconut, babassu) - up to 35%; oils that care for the skin, which provide good conditioning properties of soap - up to 25% (for example, avocado, almond, mango, etc.).

 

[ShonaR]

This is a very interesting thread, Im a relatively new soaper and I find CO very drying, I have been playing with the amounts and thought that under 10 cleansing was not good. So I can ignore the red 'warning' and go lower? I am also confused about superfatting, Ive been told it encourages DOS and reduces latehr - its such a juggling actLOL. I LOVE soapmaking friend more than any other calc btw!

 

[Yooper]

This is a very interesting thread, Im a relatively new soaper and I find CO very drying, I have been playing with the amounts and thought that under 10 cleansing was not good. So I can ignore the red 'warning' and go lower? I am also confused about superfatting, Ive been told it encourages DOS and reduces latehr - its such a juggling actLOL. I LOVE soapmaking friend more than any other calc btw!

You can have a 0 for cleansing; but still get clean. For want of a better explanation, soap will “grab” and hold dirt and rinse off even with a low cleansing number. The higher the number, the more readily this happens. It’s also more drying.

I wouldn’t superfat over 5-7% except in the case of salt bars (which I do with 100% coconut oil at 20% superfat!).

 

[Davali]

If we talk about normal values, the normal ph of the finished "zero" soap is 8-9. It can be reduced to 7.5, but no less, then the soap will cease to be soap. A "zero" soap with ph of 5.5 cannot exist by definition.

Great point, although I think finished soap is often much higher than 8-9. Because PH strips are notoriously inaccurate for testing, especially since most folks don't use them correctly, they think their soap is somewhere around 8, and it's really 10 or higher.

This is a very interesting thread, Im a relatively new soaper and I find CO very drying, I have been playing with the amounts and thought that under 10 cleansing was not good. So I can ignore the red 'warning' and go lower? I am also confused about superfatting, Ive been told it encourages DOS and reduces latehr - its such a juggling actLOL. I LOVE soapmaking friend more than any other calc btw!

Totally agree with Yooper. I try to keep my cleansing down around 10, but you can certainly go lower. I also keep my CO under 20% unless I'm making salt bars or laundry/dish soap. With those numbers in mind, I only SF around 2-3% (except I do use 20% for salt bars). Lower SF reduces the chance of rancidity, lowers the amount of soap scum, and leaves my soaping utensils way less greasy. But everyone has to figure out what works for their own skin.

 

[Coco]

Hi love this thread ....I'm relatively new to soaping and find because I have dry skin that I sf at 8% and over, 25% being the highest amount which my skin loved....but I do add sodium citrate and or ascorbic acid to my soaps(so far so good). I will be trying a hybrid 0% cleansing recipe with about 8-10% sf soon. Hopefully this will be my dream bar.

 

[Davali]

If your recipe is low on cleansing, you probably won't need much SF at all. More SF reduces lather, which makes people add back more CO or PKO for more lather... which makes it more cleansing. So you end up chasing the result.

The other issue may be that you need to find the oils that agree best with your skin. My skin loves lard, and doesn't like palm or OO very much, as they dry me out. But one of my best friends does best with a high OO bar with just a bit of CO for bubbles. All that to say, try making a few small batches with low cleansing, low SF, and different oils. You might be happily surprised at how little SF is needed with a well-formulated bar.

 

[Coco]

If your recipe is low on cleansing, you probably won't need much SF at all. More SF reduces lather, which makes people add back more CO or PKO for more lather... which makes it more cleansing. So you end up chasing the result.

The other issue may be that you need to find the oils that agree best with your skin. My skin loves lard, and doesn't like palm or OO very much, as they dry me out. But one of my best friends does best with a high OO bar with just a bit of CO for bubbles. All that to say, try making a few small batches with low cleansing, low SF, and different oils. You might be happily surprised at how little SF is needed with a well-formulated bar.

Yes that is my aim to see what I can get away with....but knowing me it will probably still probably prefer around 6-8% sf....Soap is not something I've been able to use for almost a lifetime ....just way to drying and would always make my skin flake even after moisturising...So here's to happy soaping to all x

 

[kc5779]

Interesting thread, I'm curious to know what the problem is with the 12-22 standard value for cleansing is? Why is it being frowned upon? Does it only apply for body soaps?

I feel I'm missing something here. I only make solid dish soap and only for my own use, because, the ones I've bought in the past are mostly made of coconut (which I have found issues with). I've been keeping my cleansing value between 18-20 (hope I don't cause any heart-attacks) with 0% superfat because I'm using it for dishes, and it's been working out great. I tried experimenting with different oils, butters and additives and ended up with a 14% value once but it just didn't do the trick and it felt noticeable on greasy plastics.

My issues with the 100% coconut oil soap is the odor perceived when putting pots on the fire. I have an extreme keen sense of smell and can notice it when cooking but I love everything about solid dish soaps so this got me into the soapmaking bandwagon.

I've bought over 16 different soaps from 14 different vendors/makers from all over the online shopping platform and have a vast array of different eco earth-friendly dish detergents (pastes, creams, liquid, gels, and powder forms) that have served well for comparison and providing me with a self-given "detergent expert" title more than anything ; ).

ANyway, i would guess the issue with the standard cleansing value if too high would cause irritation or something? I haven't experienced anything and I've actually have seen improvement in my dry hands after switching to solid dish soap but please if someone is still reading these threads.. fill me in on what I don't know yet.. I'm still learning.

 

[Yooper]

Interesting thread, I'm curious to know what the problem is with the 12-22 standard value for cleansing is? Why is it being frowned upon? Does it only apply for body soaps?

I feel I'm missing something here. I only make solid dish soap and only for my own use, because, the ones I've bought in the past are mostly made of coconut (which I have found issues with). I've been keeping my cleansing value between 18-20 (hope I don't cause any heart-attacks) with 0% superfat because I'm using it for dishes, and it's been working out great. I tried experimenting with different oils, butters and additives and ended up with a 14% value once but it just didn't do the trick and it felt noticeable on greasy plastics.

My issues with the 100% coconut oil soap is the odor perceived when putting pots on the fire. I have an extreme keen sense of smell and can notice it when cooking but I love everything about solid dish soaps so this got me into the soapmaking bandwagon.

I've bought over 16 different soaps from 14 different vendors/makers from all over the online shopping platform and have a vast array of different eco earth-friendly dish detergents (pastes, creams, liquid, gels, and powder forms) that have served well for comparison and providing me with a self-given "detergent expert" title more than anything ; ).

ANyway, i would guess the issue with the standard cleansing value if too high would cause irritation or something? I haven't experienced anything and I've actually have seen improvement in my dry hands after switching to solid dish soap but please if someone is still reading these threads.. fill me in on what I don't know yet.. I'm still learning.

A high cleansing value doesn't mean it will clean better- a soap with a 0% cleansing will still clean. The way soap works is it 'grabs' onto dirt (especially oily dirt). A higher cleansing number is fine, too. Generally, a very high cleansing rating will remove more oil, so it could be drying for some skin types. That's all.

The thing is, I make a 100% coconut oil soap, with some salt added at 50% of the amount of oils, and a superfat of 25%. It's not drying at all- but the cleansing number in the calculator is in the 60s! That's because those numbers are only looking at the amount of certain fatty acids, not the superfat or the additives. So whatever works, works.

 

[taher76]

This is a very interesting thread, Im a relatively new soaper and I find CO very drying, I have been playing with the amounts and thought that under 10 cleansing was not good. So I can ignore the red 'warning' and go lower? I am also confused about superfatting, Ive been told it encourages DOS and reduces latehr - its such a juggling actLOL. I LOVE soapmaking friend more than any other calc btw!

I am also new here and for soap making, I agree with you, this thread is very interesting.